Guest Blog Post – I’m not the only one!

Whenever I think I just had a “bad experience” as two cohousers have told me, I think of my friend all the way across the country. She moved into a cohousing that is over 10 years old, so mine being new wouldn’t be an excuse there. She found herself the target of harassment by someone who has harassed before (especially single moms) and that no one spoke up to it or stopped it. That is a familiar story to me – being so afraid to work together and stop bad behavior is what made me choose to leave and of course the behavior continued and others left. 

My friend has left and others had left before her due to the harassment and a few households just sold their places and got out from her cohousing.  She lived there two and a half years (starting in 2020 and recently moving out).  She moved in there because she wanted to live in community while raising kids. “ I love my kids and other’s kids and enjoyed the fun times when we were all on the lawn or running through sprinklers or when I was out playing with the kids (no one else spent the amount of time I did with the kids but I enjoyed it before I started being verbally attacked). I also wanted to work with people who were dedicated to conflict resolution and connection and figuring out how to be in community. I had studied and been part of communities and restorative justice and conflict resolution and I was excited to live it. Unfortunately, some signed the agreements but never intended to keep them so when conflict arose those parties did not participate as they’d agreed to. And the community I was in had no consequences, no rules or laws they followed to follow up on harassment or violations. They assumed all would follow agreements.”

Here is her story:

Feb 2020

There was a small group of community members who were  invited by Guy and his wife  to their house to hear a proposal. All guests were parents, two parents of small children (1-10 years old), one a parent of a teen girl and a college aged girl. We were told it was a secret meeting and not to tell anyone else about it. I was scolded by Guy and his wife, Nina, for telling the babysitter where I was going. Some other guests brought up concerns about the secrecy that were dismissed by the couple. The meeting was their idea about a racial equity training they planned for a handful of us. After a presentation we were asked how we felt about participating in this training and I agreed with others in support of the concept and I stated my concern as I wanted to care for the community that had been working hard on organizing a similar training that included all community members. Guy accused me of manipulating others with my emotions. I disagreed and he got louder and louder with his accusations until he was yelling at me, verbally berating me, accusing me of things I wasn’t doing. I told him he wasn’t hearing me and I wasn’t doing those things, I was merely answering their question of how I felt about the training. He continued until stopped by someone else.

2. Soon after the above, in the same meeting,Guy and Nina  asked if we had questions. I asked if they wanted us to pay personally or did they want the community to fund the training since that’s how trainings had been funded in the past.Guy  accused me of blocking his training by bringing up finances. When I said I wasn’t doing that and that I run all of my household’s finances and need to know the possible cost . He again got louder in his accusations and yelled at me including accusing me of more things. Once again he didn’t stop or lower his voice until interrupted by someone else.

I requested multiple times that Guy and Nina meet with me to talk about the conflict above as resolving conflict verbally (sometimes known in this cohousing community as a “clearing”) is written in our community agreements as the first step (see item 14.9 “Dispute Resolution” in Declaration of Conditions, Covenants and Restrictions attached, referred to as CC&Rs from here on out). I offered for us to do a mediation if that is preferred. They refused.

March 2020 

A neighbor was playing music for his 6 year old daughter on the common house porch, I was out on the patio with my children doing exercises. Guy  comes out of his yard and approaches me angrily and demands loudly for the music to be turned down. The neighbor, from around the corner, hears him and turns it off. Guy accuses me of playing music loudly and being inconsiderate. He gets louder and louder. He accuses me of not knowing the agreements of the community, not knowing ordinances around music, being a bad neighbor, being inconsiderate and uneducated on the law. He speaks so quickly he gives no space for me to respond. After about 10 minutes of me listening quietly with my head nodding kindly and him getting louder and angrier, he leans in towards me even more and he says, “you can go play music in your backyard”. The neighbor’s daughter  is next to me, she’s been crying since he first had the music turned off since she had been planning her dance party for hours. She heard him yelling at me and came over at some point. I say to her, “Guy says you can play music in your backyard”. Guy then yells, “that does not mean you can blast music in your backyard!”. I tell him he needs to talk to her father about it because it’s not my music and he needs to stop yelling at me. He accuses me of not caring by not telling the father for him. Guy adds many other accusations and demeaning, condescending words. I tell him that that’s his opinion. He gets louder and louder and is eventually yelling at me and I say loudly to be heard, “you’re not hearing me, stop yelling at me”. He does not listen to me telling him to stop and continues to yell at me until someone else intervenes. The children (including my two small children who are 1 and 5) witness it all.

April 26, 2020

I ask the community to intervene if Guy  yells at me and to ask him to stop and come to me to discuss things with respect and care.

May 8, 2020

Guy  complains via the community email to the whole community about my refrigerator that is temporarily on the porch while I am repairing and remodeling our newly purchased unit. (Our community has agreements around complaints and the use of email. We are supposed to go to individuals and discuss our wants or worries, not use email). One member tells him to stop bullying me.

May 18, 2020 

Guy emails the community email list about music in the common spaces including (this is just part of it as it’s very long): “A few weeks ago a conflict emerged between someone playing music on the common house porch and nearby residents. I approached an adult seemingly (to me) with the group, and asked that the music be turned down. What ensued was an argument…”

And: “I believe the ‘use a private yard for outside music’ option, or some other activity entirely, would look a lot more preferable. And, if someone did still want to play music in the common area–which I think is perfectly fine, judging from our holding a wedding reception there–and anyone said ‘No, that won’t work for me,’ they would just move on to doing something else–or take the music into their own private yard (or some other venue, which is what Nina and I would have done, with no animosity whatsoever).” 

Our community has agreements around music, quiet hours and that if we would like music turned down we go ask for it to be turned down, I have always complied with this and even turned other children’s music down when asked. I am outside with the kids a lot and kids that aren’t my own often play music so anytime Guy has asked I ask them to turn it down or off. His email does not follow our guideline or process for making new agreements. Our process includes bringing new agreement ideas to the whole community in a meeting and discussing it, not emailing one’s opinions. No one responded or agreed publicly to follow his requests.

May 2020

There are multiple meetings around the subject of music to which all members were invited. Guy did not come to any of them. I attended them all. No one had an issue with my music playing or anyone else’s including the children’s. I thoughtfully asked if anyone was willing to listen and see how music sounded from Guy’s  house. No new agreements were made about music, just some requests. The music agreements we already had in place remained in place which included the allowance of spontaneous music playing in the common area when it’s not quiet hours, the allowance of people to play music in their homes and outside, the allowance of children to play music as allowed by their parents and when asked that people will turn music down if reasonable, if someone has an issue with music they go to the person playing the music or the parents of that child.

May 20, 2020 

Guy complains via email to the whole community that my children are climbing his tree. I express confusion as to what tree as my youngest can’t climb trees and my oldest didn’t climb trees at the time. The only tree I’d seen children climb I called “the big one” and is agreed upon by the community to be ok to climb. Guy  emails to everyone, “I appeal to everyone else here to persuade (me) that children should not attempt to climb the “big one”. I was trying not to ‘out’ anyone, but, alas, I now have to go on and report that the only children I have seen trying to climb the tree are hers. I asked them not to do it when I saw it. I am now asking publicly–please tell all the children to not try to climb or hang on or otherwise place their weight upon the “big one” . Thanks, Guy”. 

My children never climbed that tree nor did he ever speak to them about it. He may have addressed other people’s children.

May 20, 2020

I reply to the above telling him he ignored my email and must be mistaking other kids for mine (lots of small kids here with the same color hair ) and I ask Guy to stop harassing me and to stop emailing me.

May 24 2020 

He sends an email to me and the whole community violating my request to not be emailed by him.

August 11, 2020

Guy calls the police and makes a report on me for alleged music played in my house as well as outdoors. The police come and find no music being played as I wasn’t playing music. They tell me they could fine me $440 as an initial step if music is found to be too loud but they found no music being played at all. That day a neighbor’s child had been playing music on his hoverboard. I had played no music. Guy  again blamed me for someone else’s behavior and music playing. And Guy has recommended (see email quoted above) we play music in our houses and in private areas so why he’d call the police about music played indoors or in yards I don’t know. We have agreements around music that no one including me and the child on his hoverboard had broken. The police find no evidence of music being played and stated they have never heard music being played at an unreasonable level by me.

August 12, 2020

I asked Nina iin person if she called the police about me allegedly playing music, she said she didn’t. I ask her if  Guy did, she says in a condescending, rhetorical tone: “I’m not surprised someone would call the cops on you, why would somebody do it, that’s the real question you should be asking”. Then she shuts her door without answering.

Sep 2020

A letter is sent from our HOA members to the police in support of me, sharing about my unwavering adherence to music (and all) community agreements.

Dec 2, 2020 

Guy is caught hiding behind a partially drawn shade in his upstairs bedroom while secretly videotaping our kids and other kids who are on my private porch and on the front lawn listening to music being played by the kid on his hover board. One father gestures for him to come talk when he sees him video taping. Guy sees him gesturing, video tapes more, then pulls the shade fully closed and never addresses the issue with us. A child that is not ours sees Guy videoing him as well and seems shaken when sharing with us.

December 30, 2020

I send a letter to Guy requesting him to not video tape our kids and to destroy any videos he has. I hear nothing back.

December 30, 2020

I send a “Community Incident Report” informing others of what has occurred.

January, 2021

The HOA president, comes to me and tells me that Nina and Guy asked him to be a liaison between us and to talk to me about arranging a professional mediation between the three of us, which they want funded by the community. He explains that they want to be heard by me on the language I am using describing them. He gives me a paper describing the process for asking for funds for mediation. I am not wanting funds for mediation yet I am told this is the process I need to follow. Eventually they have multiple people involved on a team that’s running this and they switch people multiple times and repeatedly ask me questions I don’t want to answer that waste my time and energy and cause me stress. They ask questions like, what do you want from the mediation? How many sessions do you want? What’s the goal? Will the community fund it? I don’t want funding so feel forced into a dysfunctional process solely to fund NIna and Guy. Our CC&Rs state that people must fund their portion of mediations if they do mediation. This process they were asking me to do went against our CC&Rs. Due to the fact Nina and Guy refused mediation a year earlier and the situation had been escalated by them to a point where I felt me and my family were in danger this process was harmful to me and my family. At the time I had not been given the CC&Rs and did not realize this process was not in them. No one on the HOA spoke out against the process, they supported it happening and even participated.

March 8, 2021

I send an email to the HOA president saying I’m willing to do a mediation that involves Guy taking responsibility for calling the police, video taping my children and other aggressions like yelling at me. I express I’d like it to include us making agreements about those types of actions so they are stopped and my family can be safe from threats and invasion of privacy. No one responds.

April 3, 2021

At the Plenary community/HOA meeting Nina shares during the “clearings updates” segment (where we update on “clearing” conversations we have had) that she and Guy are pursuing mediation with me and have gotten no action back. I say that this is an inappropriate discussion to have with the whole community since it is not a completed clearing and the information she shared is inaccurate. I had responded to them via the liaison they chose. They didn’t check with him and should have done their due diligence and gotten consent from me before speaking of our process. Guy continued to talk over me, ignoring my request. The facilitator interrupted him and told him to stop multiple times until he finally did. In a debrief with the process team at the time, the female facilitator is admonished verbally by another man at the meeting  for interrupting Guy. He also angrily admonishes me for interruptingGuy. The one other member there, a woman, sits by and says nothing. No one else is present.

April 2021

I wrote an email to the community forwarding my email of March 8 with an update on the facts and what I had sent to the HOA president, as well as information on the HOA’s responsibility around dealing with harassment and bullying. I also requested Nina and Guy  get my consent to use my name at plenary meetings.

May 2021

I get a letter that the HOA president has bowed out of the liaison role and two other women who are representing Guy (one was the HOA Vice President I believe) want to know what type of mediation I am willing to do.

May 2021

I email an explanation again and refer to the previous email stating that I am willing to start by participating in a restorative mediation where Guy takes responsibility for his actions and we make agreements that keep my family safe from threats. If that happens we can look into other mediations. I never hear back.

August 2021

During the HOA meeting I am ignored by the facilitator(HOA Vice President I believe), and then she interrupts and silences me during a discussion Guy initiates about an email I sent where I was getting clarity on what team was in charge of the topic of training. Multiple people including Guy had shared about it but I was not allowed to. I leave the meeting. Other community members are upset by the mistreatment of me at this meeting.

August 2021

I tell the community I will be trying to attend less meetings for my safety, to not be in the same room as Nina and Guy  and to not be silenced by them and others.

Around August 2021

I request CC&Rs and By Laws for our HOA.

September 2021

I attended the HOA meeting due to the discussion on changing our legal set up. I and another ask for ways to be safe, are people willing to record the meeting or email when a decision is coming up. It is recommended by the facilitator, that those who want can attend via zoom without participating, just listening. I do this and many (including Guy who’s running the zoom call) complain about this and my camera being off. The facilitator comes over to my house during the break, comes inside and asks me to turn my camera on because it makes people uncomfortable and many feel unsafe. They don’t ask about me and my experience at all. Finally she says, we won’t force you to do it, you do have a choice. She was acting like  she was going to force me to and she seemed to realize it. So I say, if I have a choice then I’m not turning it on.

September 2021

I ask to be taken off the cohousing thread. I am taken off. I still have my personal email that all have used and have access to to send important information to.

October 2021

Guy suggests to two other members of the process team to kick me and another HOA member out of our HOA/plenary meeting if we don’t turn our zoom cameras on and show our faces. They agree to this. In the notes from that process team meeting it says “We decided to ask attendees to keep their cameras on all the time. This, in order to know if you are present or not, as well as being able to see people and their reactions, similar to attending a plenary in person. (This vs. turning it off  briefly for personal hygiene issues, chewing, etc.) We discussed that perhaps someone may need to turn off their camera for a few minutes, but that if it lasts a long time, 15-20 mins with no communication (chat eg), the host will let them out of the zoom meeting.”

October 2021

I emailed the community the law on HOA meetings and that it is illegal to kick a member out of a meeting for not having a zoom camera on. Every member here in the community is on the HOA so we all have rights to attend.

October 2021

I emailed the community that, in accordance with the law, they must post meeting notes and when meetings are and how to access zoom in a public location so all can access them. No one does this for the next HOA meeting. I am not informed of the next meeting or given the zoom link by Guy, the organizer or  the process team.

October 2021

At the plenary meeting (a neighbor sends me the zoom link) Guy is controlling zoom and can kick me out if he chooses. The organizer threatens to enforce this and allow Guy to kick me out if my camera isn’t on. She says she doesn’t want to have to enforce my camera being off. She says schools do that and she doesn’t want to. She requests I be kind and caring of others and turn my camera on. The facilitator says I need to explain to the whole group why my camera is off as it’s inconsiderate. I don’t respond. Another member expresses the anxiety she’s feeling from hearing these words. Another member, at a later point says she wants to pursue a grievance policy since the word “harassment” has been used. Another says she’ll send an email with the CC&Rs they found.

October 2021

The CC&Rs are finally sent to me and include rules Nina and Guy and  the HOA have broken (see above in this report), like requiring a member to meet face to face when there’s a conflict resolution needed, then getting mediation that they both pay for equally.  Nina and Guy refused to do that, then escalated aggressions and violations towards me, then had the HOA president tell me I had to participate in a process to get them funding to do a mediation with me. After multiple people with HOA titles (president, Vice President) and power started participating and asking for inappropriate things that go against the CC&Rs I said I won’t participate in this process for  Nina and Guy to be funded. Now I see the CC&Rs supported that when I originally asked for it (see 14.9 “Dispute Resolution” in CC&Rs). The HOA is also required to follow up on harassment and did not do that when I asked for help because I was being harassed. The HOA should stop bullying and stop anyone making illegal threats to kick me or anyone else out of meetings for not having a camera. It hasn’t. This violates multiple rights including my right to “quiet enjoyment” of my property.

October 2021

A community member and HOA member, shares that Guy and NIna admitted to her that Guy had videotaped my children while hiding in their upstairs room behind a shade and that she told them it was “creepy” which they argued against.

November 2021

3 days notice for the process team meeting was not given by the process team which includes Guy.

November 2021

The process team request all cameras be on for the next HOA meeting.

November 2021

No zoom info is sent to me before the HOA meeting by Guy. I request it, it is given to me by someone else after the meeting starts.Guy (who set it up) does not include a call in info. Half an hour after the meeting start time someone changes the settings to allow calls and sends a call in number so I can access the meeting. I missed 30 mins of the meeting due to him shutting off call in options.

December 2021

A doodle poll is sent out to set up HOA meeting times for 2022, it is not sent to me. I email the community to post business information and meetings in a public place that all can access. Some  email  the cohousing thread that everyone is required to be on the email list if they want information. I ask to see documentation that shows that and I say that I don’t believe they can require us to be on an email list that is not solely for business but is mostly used for excessive, non-business discussions. It has also been used to bully people (Guy used it to bully me) so I opted to not be on it since the harassment against me was never addressed and email was a tool Guy used against me. One member  says residents are required to have a “reasonable” way of getting information and she thinks the email is reasonable. I tell her I think it is not reasonable to be on an email that allows bullying and harassment of neighbors and excessive non-business discussions. 

December 2021

The HOA meetings for 2022 are scheduled by the process team and emailed to the community without ever sending me the requested poll or getting my input.

December 2021

I asked the process team again for the scheduling poll and am finally sent it via email. I ask if the process team will be redoing the schedule and if input is being considered or just being sent to me for information. I am told multiple people were not checked in about scheduling and multiple requests were not reflected in the poll from the process team.

December 2021

I moved out due to the bullying and negligence.

January 2022

No one posted or emailed me the link to the plenary meeting on Jan 8, 2022. I could not attend without the link.

I sold my house recently and this was my last email to the community:

I am filing a detailed police report and timeline in regards to the harassment I was a target of for over two years at This Cohousing Community. If anyone wants to read it let me know and we can make an appointment (I will not be giving out copies, you can read mine). It includes the main perpetrator as well as others who enabled, joined in, threatened to enforce illegal action or had me participate in “policies” that added to the perpetrator’s harm (for example, membership and the HOA board having me participate in a painful, time consuming community procedure that was purely to get the perpetrator funding from the community which directly goes against the community’s CC&Rs that state that each party must pay for themselves in a professional mediation). It also includes those who interrupted and/or spoke up. I have a lot of gratitude for those who supported safety and who spoke up despite being scared. I am sad more people did not speak out and that my family living there became so unsafe I had to leave. Every time I was targeted in public it was one of your children’s actions I got accused of. Not one incident was due to my actions or my children’s actions. Yet not one parent stepped up to the perpetrator. This Cohousing Community is legally responsible for keeping people safe in their homes and shared front yards and investigating harassment claims (my report includes all the laws and I have emailed them previously so every current member is aware of this). I hope no one has to go through what I went through. I hope women and children outside are protected, not targeted and harassed. Unfortunately I am not the first single woman to be targeted here. Multiple professionals I spoke to recommended suing but if one doesn’t want to take that route (and at this time I don’t want to do that) they recommend making police reports so that future victims can be protected since the HOA is not taking the protective steps they are legally required to. You can also get a restraining order which I should have done early on.

Bye!

About CJ

I was a Spanish teacher for 5 years in the Public School system in 3 different states. I homeschooled and taught at a democratic free school. I heard about cohousing in 2010 and wanted to move in right away. I met a group building one in 2018 and got to move in the summer of 2019. It only took a year to want out.
This entry was posted in bad behavior and bullies of any age, control and decision making in cohousing, diversity and cohousing, group think and cults, marriage and cohousing, moving in and out of cohousing, parenting, privacy, psychopathy, narcissicism, and personality disorders in cohousing, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

10 Responses to Guest Blog Post – I’m not the only one!

  1. Flower says:

    “We were told it was a secret meeting and not to tell anyone else about it. I was scolded by Guy and his wife, Nina, for telling the babysitter where I was going. Some other guests brought up concerns about the secrecy that were dismissed by the couple.”

    The secret meeting is a huge red flag–at least for me.

    “One member tells him to stop bullying me.”

    Only one member speaks up and later there is talk, but no action and no group effort to stop it.

    It really sounds like a very stressful situation. I’m surprised she lasted as long as she did, but maybe she didn’t have other options either. This person (Guy) sounds problematic from the start, although I don’t know much about him or his wife. If pursuing legal action isn’t an option for her then at least filing a detailed police report was the best course of action under the circumstances. Aside from that I don’t know what other avenues she could take.

    I’m certain that these situations do crop up at other communities as well. It’s understandable if people just want to wash their hands of it and move on, but our society encourages to “move on” as well and to “not talk” or “open up” about negative situations. That leaves talking to a counselor an option for her as another resource to help her to heal. I’ll bet she has soured on community too and it would be hard not to be given the situation. Unfortunately one can find difficult situations and experience harassment in our society in conventional circumstances and neighborhoods which are not purportedly all about “community”.

  2. CJ says:

    It’s all sad. The difference is that cohousing markets itself as different than regular neighborhoods. It makes me wonder if it’s too much to promise and overwhelming to deal with hard issues as a self governance. I know that’s what happened where I lived – a terrible issue that isn’t easy without outside help and we fell apart, and, I believe, still ripple effects.

    • Flower says:

      I agree that it’s sad. I do understand the difference as I’ve been researching it myself, so I see the focus as “different” meaning “better” than regular neighborhoods and the promise of “community”. Community has a nice ring to it as does “self governance” and all of the language the marketing tends to use to side-step the harder questions and reality of those living arrangements. I’m certain you’re right about the ripple effects too.

      I do notice frequent and truthfully excessive use of “community” in marketing materials including new housing developments. It paints a pretty picture that harkens to the days of old when people purportedly communicated in gatherings around the campfire and actually engaged in conversations, instead of incessantly staring at the computers, iphones and social media.

      To be frank, I’m surprised that I found your blog at all. I usually don’t trust google and tend to use DuckDuckgo and your blog doesn’t come up there, but more “feel good” pieces that tend to depict cohousing as some kind of panacea for all of society’s alleged ills. So I think it appeals to the escapist fantasy of a utopian existence. Instead of the focus of drugs and free sex of previous communes, it’s the promise of “free babysitting” with a dash of permaculture thrown in on the side.

  3. CJ says:

    Good question – how did you find my blog? I try to make it pop up on search engines but I don’t think it has yet. I just want to reach people to look for those red flags and realize the risks and ask the right questions before buying a place in cohousing (renting first is a good idea to “know” the place). I love that phrase “the promise of “free babysitting” with a dash of permaculture thrown in on the side.” so true!!!

    • Flower says:

      Good question and I can’t really say because I didn’t write it down. I know I had to try a lot of different searches including negative experiences, etc., because I want results that offer a more comprehensive approach. It is easy to spot bias.

      With google results, if it will allow, I’ll look back 10 pages or more to see what will show up, because often results are buried. I use different search engines, because I find the results are different. I don’t really trust google. I’ve usually found better results using other search engines and they are different.

      I don’t know how to make it pop up either. I searched again this morning by putting in your blog and it didn’t work–truth in cohousing. What came up was a lot of articles extolling the positives. There was one that came up about diversity which is “on trend” and the narrative now. I’m certain they are attempting to stay relevant and appeal to a certain subset with their marketing and phrasing.

  4. CJ says:

    I tried to be searchable under the negative, but also, I originally started the blog to show both – just document my experience. I had no idea it’d go south so quickly.

    • Flower says:

      I know. I did read that. When I spoke of bias I was referencing the “puff” pieces. I think you’re just being honest about your experience which provides another perspective and much needed balance. I’m certain there are other people who have not had good experiences either, but don’t share. So many of the articles seem to say the same things and it’s like a broken record.

  5. CJ says:

    I think hearing the stories of those who have left is so important, for whatever reason such as a new job or whatever. But I also understand wanting to go on with your life.

    • Flower says:

      I agree although there seems to be scant information about why people leave. It’s as if there is some unwritten rule preventing people from speaking openly about issues and conflicts–just suppress your emotions and move on or forgive.

      Then you also have “positivity culture” which can be subtle and also which encourages people to brush off problems rather than face them. For instance if you need to write to process what happened and you’re questioned about it as if somehow you haven’t “moved on” or forward. Seriously, what is wrong with feeling sad, angry or disappointed–those are valid experiences in life. All that does is encourage people to stuff their emotions and feel guilty for feeling what they feel.

      Whenever I detect certain “mindsets” in people it pushes me away. I often feel it’s futile to try to talk to them because behaviors are ingrained and so many people are unaware of why they behave as they do. If you challenge them, no matter how kind or nice you are, they will push back and get defensive or dig in their heels. They are not going to change and the only thing that inspires them to change is when they feel or get hurt and even then ingrained behaviors are hard to change.

  6. CJ says:

    Thank you! It is cruel to ask someone to just move on. Of course they would if they could. Everyone heals in their own time. Like grief, it comes and goes in degrees. And grief is a part of healing from many things (Losing a job, friend, etc)

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